RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?

From: Kenneth Kowalski Date: September 29, 2003 technical Source: cognigencorp.com
From: Ken.Kowalski@pfizer.com Subject: RE: [NMusers] order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis? Date: 9/29/2003 9:58 AM Marc, Bill, et al., Nice summary but to me the key point to this discussion based on Pete Bonate's original message in this thread is that we need to be cognizant of the effects of collinearity when we build covariate models regardless of the model building procedure we use. The problem with the 'kitchen sink' approach is that we are putting too much trust in the statistical algorithm to sort out the true covariates from the nuisiance covariates that may be highly correlated with them. The more things we toss into the 'kitchen sink' the more likely we will pick up some of these nuisance covariates in our model. Why is it that we are willing to make very strong mechanistic assumptions regarding the structural model but when it comes to a list of covariates to be investigated we are unwilling to prune the list based on this same mechanistic reasoning? Of course we do try to make the list somewhat plausible (e.g., we don't typically include shoe size as a covariate but its likely to be correlated with weight and may actually explain some of the interindividual variation), we just need to be a little more discriminating (rather than just pruning out the obvious such as shoe size). With regards to building a full model, it is a bit of a 'straw man' argument to say full models are difficult to develop when there are 20-30 covariates. The difficulty is not the number of covariates but the amount of independent information contained in these 20-30 covariates. The full model approach requires the data analyst to deal head-on with the collinearity issue. The issue is not of computational speed. Just because we now have procedures that may be computationally faster than what we had say 10 years ago, doesn't mean that we should blindly (i.e., ignoring collinearity) investigate more covariates just because we can. Ken
Sep 25, 2003 Peter Bonate order of covariate inclusion
Sep 25, 2003 Leonid Gibiansky Re: order of covariate inclusion
Sep 25, 2003 Peter Bonate Re: order of covariate inclusion
Sep 25, 2003 Leonid Gibiansky Re: order of covariate inclusion
Sep 25, 2003 Harry Mager Hm Re: order of covariate inclusion
Sep 25, 2003 William Bachman RE: Re: order of covariate inclusion
Sep 25, 2003 Leonid Gibiansky RE: Re: order of covariate inclusion
Sep 25, 2003 Peter Bonate RE: Re: order of covariate inclusion
Sep 25, 2003 Kenneth Kowalski RE: order of covariate inclusion
Sep 25, 2003 Alan Xiao RE: Re: order of covariate inclusion
Sep 25, 2003 Leonid Gibiansky Re: order of covariate inclusion
Sep 25, 2003 Kenneth Kowalski RE: order of covariate inclusion
Sep 25, 2003 Sduffull RE: order of covariate inclusion
Sep 25, 2003 Marc Gastonguay RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches
Sep 26, 2003 Gary Maier RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches
Sep 26, 2003 Marc Gastonguay RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches
Sep 26, 2003 William Bachman RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 26, 2003 Jakob Ribbing RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches
Sep 26, 2003 Mark Sale RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches
Sep 26, 2003 Chuanpu 2 Hu RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise a pproaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 26, 2003 Kenneth Kowalski RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches
Sep 26, 2003 Kenneth Kowalski RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 26, 2003 William Bachman RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 26, 2003 Marc Gastonguay RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 26, 2003 Kenneth Kowalski RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 26, 2003 William Bachman RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 26, 2003 Mark Sale RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 26, 2003 Marc Gastonguay RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 26, 2003 David Garbutt RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 26, 2003 Leonid Gibiansky RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 26, 2003 Mark Sale RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 26, 2003 Marc Gastonguay RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 26, 2003 Sduffull RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise a pproaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 27, 2003 Marc Gastonguay RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 29, 2003 Mark Sale RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 29, 2003 Harry Mager Hm RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 29, 2003 Kenneth Kowalski RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 29, 2003 Tgordi RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise approaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 29, 2003 Leonid Gibiansky RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise a pproaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 29, 2003 Guzy RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise a pproaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 29, 2003 Mark Sale RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise a pproaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?
Sep 29, 2003 Kenneth Kowalski RE: order of covariate inclusion -> avoiding stepwise a pproaches -> abandoning exploratory analysis?