Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model

From: Mark Sale Date: August 02, 2006 technical Source: cognigencorp.com
From: Mark Sale - Next Level Solutions mark@nextlevelsolns.com Subject: Re: [NMusers] Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 08:52:44 -0700 Lenoid, I, for one am not ready to discard convergence as a measure of model "goodness". I'm not even prepared to discard covariance success as a measure of model "goodness" - everything else being equal I will always prefer a model that converges|does a covariance step over one that doesn't. But, at the same time, I'd suggest that covariance step or convergence isn't required to deem a model useful (as we all know, they are never correct), or even final. The hard choices are when a model that makes biological sense refuses to converge and simple, empirial models do converge. Next, there are, I beleive three factors that contribute to "model instability" (meaning that the variance/covariance matrix cannot be inverted and/or the model fails the internal criteria for NONMEM to declare it converged. These three factors overlap greatly, and are very rarely black and white. They are: 1. Model dependent non-identifiability - your example, you cannnot, regardless of the amount/quality of the data identify CL, V and F with only oral data. (although I had an example where NONMEM converge successfully in such a case - supporting Nicks position). Essentially, any value of F is consistent with the data (with a corresponding value for CL and V). In this case, I beleive that the condition number/rank of the covariance matrix would indicate this. 2. Data dependent non-identifiability. Imagine that you want to estimate KA, but all of your data is in the terminal phase. Basically any value of KA is consistent with the data (therefore, the likelihood of the data isn't effected by the value of KA, the objective function surface is flat in that dimension). This will be true regardless of the quality of the data. In this case as well, I beleive that the condition number/rank of the covariance matrix would indicate this. Note the same root cause as data dependent non-identifiability - any value of a parameter is consistent with the data. 3. Numerical problems. Much more vague concept. Partly related to "quality" of the data (model misspecification, residual error, auto correlation). But, also includes true rounding errors, which are most likely to be seen if we have a wide range of likelihoods between subjects (e.g., some individuals have a lot of data, some have little data). But, this source of rouding error is probably small compared to the model misspecification, large residual error and autocorrelation. Auto correlation, BTW, is known to be very, very bad in linear regression - resulting in bias in both parameter estimates and estiamtes of SE. I'm not aware that it has been studied much in non-linear regression, but I suspect it is a significant problem, only partly addressed by the L2 variable. Mark Sale MD Next Level Solutions, LLC www.NextLevelSolns.com
Jul 29, 2006 Max Tsai Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Jul 30, 2006 Nick Holford Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Jul 30, 2006 Max Tsai Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Jul 30, 2006 Leonid Gibiansky Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Jul 30, 2006 Nick Holford Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Jul 31, 2006 Max Tsai Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Jul 31, 2006 Peter Bonate Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Jul 31, 2006 Peter Bonate Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Aug 01, 2006 Mark Sale Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Aug 01, 2006 Nick Holford Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Aug 02, 2006 Leonid Gibiansky Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Aug 02, 2006 Nick Holford Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Aug 02, 2006 Mark Sale Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Aug 02, 2006 Leonid Gibiansky Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Aug 02, 2006 Mark Sale Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Aug 03, 2006 Jeroen Elassaiss-Schaap Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Aug 03, 2006 Nick Holford Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Aug 03, 2006 James G Wright Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Aug 03, 2006 Manoj Khurana Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Aug 03, 2006 Mark Sale Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model
Aug 03, 2006 Nick Holford Re: Problems with an apparent compiler-senstive model