RE: posthoc step

From: Thomas Ludden Date: December 13, 2004 technical Source: cognigencorp.com
From: "Ludden, Thomas (MYD)" luddent@iconus.com Subject: RE: [NMusers] posthoc step Date: Mon, December 13, 2004 4:53 pm Jerry, Thanks very much for the SAS results. The multiple minima seems to be at least part of the problem. With an initial estimate of K=10 (ETA=0) and fixed residual error variance the predicted values are all well below the prior err SD of 0.2. With K=10 the half-life is 0.0693. The first data point is at 1 time unit, > 10 halflives. The predicted values at T=1,2,3 are 0.000454, 2.06x10 ^ -8, 9x10 ^ -13, respectively. It is my understanding that the NONMEM ETA search begins with ETA=0 (THETA=10) and is in a region of the objective function (OFV) where changes in the observation part of the OFV are very small. [Subtracting a very small number, the prediction, from a much larger number, the observation, results in very little decrease in this part of the OFV as the K value is changed.] Moving the K estimate away from 10 toward 1 should decrease the observation part of the OFV and increase the parameter part of the OFV. In the region immediately around K=10 the objective function has a minor minimum at K=9.78 but then as K is further decreased the changes are slightly dominated by the prior and the total OFV increases (slightly) until K is about 7.2 at which point the predictions are becoming large enough to cause the OFV to begin to decrease again with the real minimum, 21.6 at K=0.944. Unfortunately, I have not found a way to vary the initial estimate for ETA when using MAXEVAL=0, POSTHOC with NONMEM so I cannot determine how NONMEM handles the two minima under these conditions. In this extreme case, the individual residuals (IRES) should have large absolute values and would signal that this individual's data are poorly described by the individual parameter estimates. This problem may occur only rarely, since, in my experience, IPRED's and DV's almost always agree very well. The multiple minima in the OFV may be a function of the extreme conditions of the example. As pointed out by Stuart Beal, "... posthoc is meant to be used with realistic estimates of the population parameters; ones that are commensurate with data." The T values of 1,2,3 are very high relative to realistic sampling times given the prior of K~N(10,var=4). The majority of subjects from the population described by the prior would have very low concentrations, essentially "nondata" values given the residual error variance of 0.04. T values of 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 would be more reasonable design points for sampling from the prior. If I use Y values based on K=1 and these more realistic T values, the empirical Bayes OFV appears to have a single minimum at about K=1.011 over the range of K values from .1 to 10 (See tabulation below). Now NONMEM (MAXEVAL=0, POSTHOC) and Excel solver both yield K=1.01 with an initial value of K=10. However, it is difficult to know how to generalize this. Thanks for bring this interesting problem to the attention of nmusers. Users should examine IPRED VS DV or similar diagnostic plots to look for substantial deviations from the line of unity that might indicate a problem of this kind. I simulated a sample of 50 individuals from the prior and then included the extreme individual in the data set. Plots of IPRED vs DV revealed marked deviation from the line of unity for this individual. Tom initial est OFV 10 3082.1932 9.8 3032.9791 9.6 2982.4598 9.4 2930.6026 9.2 2877.3750 9 2822.7451 8 2527.5070 7.5 2365.3835 7.25 2280.5581 7.2 2263.2889 7.1 2228.4456 7 2193.1954 6.5 2010.8571 6.45 1992.0692 6 1818.5523 5.5 1616.8539 5 1406.8869 4.5 1190.5497 4 970.8134 3.5 752.1250 3 540.9518 2.5 346.5135 2 181.7666 1.5 64.7274 1.011 20.2260 1 20.2500 0.9 22.8657 0.8 30.0327 0.7 42.0970 0.6 59.4266 0.5 82.4128 0.4 111.4720957 0.3 147.0470862 0.1 239.6568697
Dec 06, 2004 Pravin Jadhav posthoc step
Dec 06, 2004 Nitin Kaila Re: posthoc step
Dec 07, 2004 Pravin Jadhav Re: posthoc step
Dec 07, 2004 Nick Holford Re: posthoc step
Dec 07, 2004 William Bachman RE: posthoc step
Dec 07, 2004 Yaning Wang RE: posthoc step
Dec 07, 2004 Kenneth Kowalski RE: posthoc step
Dec 07, 2004 Marc Gastonguay Re: posthoc step
Dec 07, 2004 Jerry Nedelman RE: posthoc step
Dec 08, 2004 Pravin Jadhav Re: posthoc step
Dec 08, 2004 Leonid Gibiansky RE: posthoc step
Dec 08, 2004 Kenneth Kowalski RE: posthoc step
Dec 08, 2004 Nick Holford Re: posthoc step
Dec 08, 2004 Stephen Duffull RE: posthoc step
Dec 08, 2004 Stephen Duffull RE: posthoc step
Dec 08, 2004 Nick Holford Re: posthoc step
Dec 08, 2004 Jerry Nedelman RE: posthoc step
Dec 09, 2004 Yaning Wang RE: posthoc step
Dec 09, 2004 Nick Holford Re: posthoc step
Dec 10, 2004 Thomas Ludden RE: posthoc step
Dec 12, 2004 Jerry Nedelman RE: posthoc step
Dec 13, 2004 Thomas Ludden RE: posthoc step
Dec 14, 2004 Nick Holford Re: posthoc step
Dec 15, 2004 Stephen Duffull RE: posthoc step
Dec 15, 2004 Nick Holford Re: posthoc step
Dec 15, 2004 Stephen Duffull RE: posthoc step
Dec 15, 2004 Thomas Ludden RE: posthoc step
Dec 16, 2004 Vicente Casabo RE: posthoc step
Dec 16, 2004 Nick Holford Re: posthoc step
Dec 16, 2004 Thomas Ludden RE: posthoc step
Dec 20, 2004 Thomas Ludden RE: posthoc step