RE: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message

From: Kenneth G. Kowalski Date: August 22, 2001 technical Source: cognigencorp.com
From: "KOWALSKI, KENNETH G. [R&D/1825]" <kenneth.g.kowalski@pharmacia.com> Subject: RE: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:02:36 -0500 Nick and Lew, In the discussion that Nick and I were having I was assuming that the only information available was based on the data at hand which ML wants to estimate a singular cov matrix. When I used the term "arbitrary" for setting the correlation to 0.3 I was assuming there was no other information available. That is, there is no prior knowledge that the true correlation is 0.3. Certainly if other data is available perhaps from a design that allows better estimation of the correlation and an informative prior can be developed that says the correlation is 0.3 I wouldn't take the bet either. My point is that in the absence of an informative prior if ML wants to estimate a singular cov matrix it seems doubtful that the true correlation would be 0.3. A correlation of 0.3 is fairly weak and I would expect that for most data/designs if the true correlation was 0.3 you wouldn't run into a singular cov matrix due to ML trying to estimate the correlation as 1.0. It seems to me there must be sufficient information in the data to make ML want to drive the correlation to 1. So, I guess I'm saying that if you put a mild prior on the correlation centered about 0.3 its still likely to move the correlation considerably away from 0.3. Perhaps I'm wrong and a poor design could still drive ML to estimate the correlation as 1 when the true value is 0.3...I don't know. It just seems more likely that the true correlation would be considerably higher...perhaps 0.8 or 0.9. In any event, the six-pack is on me. Best regards, Ken
Quoted reply history
-----Original Message----- From: LSheiner [mailto:lewis@c255.ucsf.edu] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:44 PM To: KOWALSKI, KENNETH G. [R&D/1825]; Nick Holford Subject: Re: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message Nick, If it will make you more likely to take Ken up on his wager, I'll cover 2 of the cans in the six-pack against him ... The reason I suspect that he might be wrong is that ML really really wants a singular cov matrix; sometimes beyond "reason". So if your prior knowledge says param A and param B really are no more correlated in real life than .3, I'm guessing the simulated data will look more reasonable that way than if we let ML have it's way. You made the suggestion (but then it wasn't discussed further) of putting a prior on OMEGA that puts some prior weight on corr=.3. If you did this, and then you saw that without the prior the corr goes to 1, but with a mild prior it stays near .3, I'd cover the whole six-pack ... Bayes is ALWAYS sensible; ML is only sensible when it has enough data. L. -- _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Lewis B Sheiner, MD (lewis@c255.ucsf.edu) _/ _/ _/ _/_ _/_/ Professor: Lab. Med., Bioph. Sci., Med. _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Box 0626, UCSF, SF, CA, 94143-0626 _/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/ 415-476-1965 (v), 415-476-2796 (fax)
Aug 15, 2001 Alan Xiao Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
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Aug 15, 2001 Stuart Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 15, 2001 Alan Xiao [Fwd: Re: Non-positive semi-definite message]
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Aug 16, 2001 Vladimir Piotrovskij RE: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
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Aug 16, 2001 Vladimir Piotrovskij RE: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 16, 2001 Vladimir Piotrovskij RE: S-matrix and RNGs
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Aug 16, 2001 Lewis B. Sheiner Re: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
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Aug 16, 2001 Stuart Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
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Aug 20, 2001 Kenneth G. Kowalski RE: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 20, 2001 Alan Xiao Re: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 20, 2001 Nick Holford Re: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 20, 2001 Kenneth G. Kowalski RE: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 20, 2001 Kenneth G. Kowalski RE: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 21, 2001 Kenneth G. Kowalski RE: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 21, 2001 Nick Holford Re: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 21, 2001 Kenneth G. Kowalski RE: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 21, 2001 Nick Holford Re: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 22, 2001 Mats Karlsson Re: NNMUSERS : Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 22, 2001 Kenneth G. Kowalski RE: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 22, 2001 Smith Brian P Re: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Aug 22, 2001 John Lukas NNMUSERS : Non-positive semi-definite message