RE: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
From: "KOWALSKI, KENNETH G. [R&D/1825]" <kenneth.g.kowalski@pharmacia.com>
Subject: RE: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:02:36 -0500
Nick and Lew,
In the discussion that Nick and I were having I was assuming that the only
information available was based on the data at hand which ML wants to
estimate a singular cov matrix. When I used the term "arbitrary" for
setting the correlation to 0.3 I was assuming there was no other information
available. That is, there is no prior knowledge that the true correlation
is 0.3. Certainly if other data is available perhaps from a design that
allows better estimation of the correlation and an informative prior can be
developed that says the correlation is 0.3 I wouldn't take the bet either.
My point is that in the absence of an informative prior if ML wants to
estimate a singular cov matrix it seems doubtful that the true correlation
would be 0.3. A correlation of 0.3 is fairly weak and I would expect that
for most data/designs if the true correlation was 0.3 you wouldn't run into
a singular cov matrix due to ML trying to estimate the correlation as 1.0.
It seems to me there must be sufficient information in the data to make ML
want to drive the correlation to 1. So, I guess I'm saying that if you put
a mild prior on the correlation centered about 0.3 its still likely to move
the correlation considerably away from 0.3. Perhaps I'm wrong and a poor
design could still drive ML to estimate the correlation as 1 when the true
value is 0.3...I don't know. It just seems more likely that the true
correlation would be considerably higher...perhaps 0.8 or 0.9.
In any event, the six-pack is on me.
Best regards,
Ken
Quoted reply history
-----Original Message-----
From: LSheiner [mailto:lewis@c255.ucsf.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:44 PM
To: KOWALSKI, KENNETH G. [R&D/1825]; Nick Holford
Subject: Re: Help: Non-positive semi-definite message
Nick,
If it will make you more likely to take Ken up on his wager,
I'll cover 2 of the cans in the six-pack against him ...
The reason I suspect that he might
be wrong is that ML really really wants a singular
cov matrix; sometimes beyond "reason". So if your prior knowledge
says param A and param B really are no more correlated in
real life than .3, I'm guessing the simulated data will look more
reasonable
that way than if we let ML have it's way.
You made the suggestion (but then it wasn't discussed further) of
putting a prior on OMEGA that puts some prior weight on corr=.3.
If you did this, and then you saw that without the prior the corr goes
to 1,
but with a mild prior it stays near .3, I'd cover the
whole six-pack ... Bayes is ALWAYS sensible; ML is only sensible when
it has enough data.
L.
--
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Lewis B Sheiner, MD (lewis@c255.ucsf.edu)
_/ _/ _/ _/_ _/_/ Professor: Lab. Med., Bioph. Sci., Med.
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Box 0626, UCSF, SF, CA, 94143-0626
_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/ 415-476-1965 (v), 415-476-2796 (fax)